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A short question for contemplation

Rev 15 Angels 7bowls

A simple question for those who have been sold on the Pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine. Consider this verse:

 REV 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. [2] And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. [3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Here come the 7 vials (Bowls) the final plagues that are directed toward the Kingdom of Antichrist and his followers. This is the “wrath of God”. His wrath is directed at particular people and are a terrible set of judgments.  The wrath of God takes place after the Tribulation and can be seen first in Revelation 6:15-17 after the 1260 days and after the sun and moon are darkened which is a sign to the believers that the end of the tribulation has come and the Lord Yeshua is about to appear in the Second coming, the resurrection and to take away the living saints.  Here in Revelation 15 we see the righteous in heaven praising God and singing the song of Moshes. But notice, these saints in Heaven have come out of the Great Tribulation and have gotten victory over the beast Antichrist, the mark of his name.  Those who teach Christians that they will never see the Antichrist or the tribulation need to explain how these believers had victory over the Antichrist and the order to take his mark. This happened during the tribulation didn’t it? Yes! How could they have victory over the Antichrist and his system if they were whisked away in a pre-tribulation rapture long before the Tribulation actually started? Impossible!

People who have been fed this false doctrine believe that the very next thing to happen on the prophetic timeline will be the Rapture of the Church.  I find this astounding when Yeshua warned us in advance that the Antichrist would come before His  (Messiah’s) own return and that we would face hardships, the Great Tribulation  and will  see the sun and moon darkened before He  gathers us to Himself. And here once again we see in Rev 15, those who have had victory over the Antichrist during the tribulation now standing in Heaven. My brothers, the night is far spent, the day is at hand. Rouse yourselves from your slumber and believe God’s word. Divorce yourselves from false teachers and their fairy tale promises.

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13 comments on “A short question for contemplation

  1. Sean Osborne
    March 4, 2014

    No one “sold” me on the truth of the promise of the Harpazo. On the contrary, I was convicted of it during a Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh).

    Speaking against what Ruach HaKodesh has revealed is akin to blasphemy, and i would not be so bold to declare such a “doctrine’ as false. We all should be very aware of the consequences of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it is THE ONLY unpardonable sin.

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    • cfryalls
      March 4, 2014

      I believe Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would entail taking credit for work that He has done, or claiming to be the embodiment of the spirit.

      But Sean, look at the verse I posted and answer the Question, How did these saints have victory over the Antichrist if they were Raptured before the Antichrist came to power and instituted the mark of the beast? Additionally, why did Yeshua tell us that we would be gathered together in the Rapture only when He returns at the end of the Tribulation? Isn’t it rather a curious thing that there is no mention of a pretrib rapture anywhere in scripture. Paul didn’t teach it and neither did Yeshua. So where does this come from? Can you demonstrate a scriptural proof of this doctrine? Post it for us.

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      • cfryalls
        March 4, 2014

        Guess you aren’t finding any. (sound of crickets in the background) 🙂

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      • Sean Osborne
        March 5, 2014

        cfryalls,

        Those in Revelation 15:1 are what are commonly referred to as the “Tribulation Saints.”

        They consist the 144,000 Jewish evangelists and the innumerable numbers of both Jews and Gentiles who received Jesus Christ during the 70th Week.

        These people are not the Bride of Christ, both those previously deceased Jews and Gentiles saved by the Blood of the Lamb of God and those of us who are alive and will be Harpazoed some at some unknown point prior to the 70th Week. This is the Church. The Bride of Christ is the same as the Church. Ephesians 5:24-27; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7-9; Revelation 21:1-2.

        Study the differences between the “Tribulation Saints” and the Bride of Christ – the distinction between these two groups is very acute. This acute distinction, with the conviction of the Holy Spirit will lead one to the realization that the Harpazo occurs at some point prior to the 70th Week. I believe that point is just prior to or concurrent with Ezekiel 39:29 when God once again is completely focused upon Israel. That’s when construction of the 3rd Temple will commence – after Israel has no more enemies to contend with (1 Kings 5 is the prophetic template that applies).

        It would be good to start at Revelation 7 and study the text about the 144,000 who are sealed by God on their foreheads. They are Israel coming out of the 70th Week. Then you get to verse 9 and you see “a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues.” These are the Gentile nations saved due to the Holy Spirit-empowered evangelizing of the 144,000.

        So tell me: would 144,000 be the total number of Jews who will enter into Heaven? — Or —
        Were there many, many other Jews who as members of the Bride of Christ with their Gentile brethren were taken prior to the 70th Week in the Harpazo, who during the 70th Week are in Heaven with Christ at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb?

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  2. cfryalls
    March 5, 2014

    Here is what I know about this. I too am baptized in the Spirit and after being filled my interest and thirst for God went wild and I read books about the Christian life and subject of theology and prophecies everything I could get my hands on. My wrong assumption was that popular published authors were well proven theologians and preaching sound doctrine. This proved to be the farthest thing from the truth!

    So very quickly I was caught in the Pretrib-Quagmire. I began preaching that doctrine and even wrote a short novel based on it. (The Paradigm Shift, 1997) My emphasis was a call of repentance and returning to God because the end was near. My message was not along the lines of promoting the greater worthiness of those who would be raptured. Then a good brother challenged me to examine the scriptures for myself on the end times subject. I was ready to do that because while believing in the pretrib rapture and reading it’s teachers I became aware of obvious misuse of scripture, things taken out of context, actual re-wording of some passages and many things that were totally inconsistent. My heart (Spirit ) told me that God didn’t change and did not change the plan and that whatever He told the old testament prophets had to be the same as what the Lord, Yeshua, and the New Testament writers were saying. They had to agree if we were understanding them correctly. So I set out to read the scriptures myself and to examine the context to make sure I had things correct. When I did this, I found the pretrib-rapture theory to be totally unsupported in scripture, context and even typology. It was a mythological fairy tail perpetuated by preachers who were making a tons of money selling books and tapes and collecting money from followers.

    So I studied it again and again and took the position that no matter what was there that Yeshua was in fact God in the flesh and did tell us exactly only the truth. His word was above all. This is what it means to be a follower of Christ. When I did this everything locked together, all the old Testament and New testament totally agreed. What Paul taught also agreed. He didn’t introduce a pretrib rapture at all. He only assured the saints that all, the living and the dead who were faithful would be joined together in the glorified state, the dead righteous resurrected and the the righteous alive at the return of the Lord would be changed, given glorified bodies and be joined with that body of believers who stand before God. He assured them that no believers would be left behind whether dead or alive and he placed that event just as Jesus (Yeshua) did, at the very time of His return in the Glorious second coming at the last trump,, and that what followed after that in-gathering was the wrath of God against the satanic/ demonic forces on the earth. Further it shows that a multitude of flesh non-believers would survive these events and would become subject of the earthly Millennial Kingdom, and would receive first hand instruction from God through Messiah and would be ruled over in righteousness, even with a rod of iron until all the enemies of God and all unfaithfulness is exposed. Then the final white throne judgment when even Satan is destroyed.

    Take Matthew 24 and read it and understand it. And then read all the others old and new testament and you will see they all agree, and it is not a pretrib senario. It is post trib with the wrath of God following beginning at Armageddon.

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  3. Sean Osborne
    March 5, 2014

    I have been a member of the Bride of Christ since 1971. I have studied His Word every day since then. I find it amazing that you think your walk with Him and knowledge of His Word is superior that that of your brethren.

    By the way, I have lot’s of things to do in my life, so because you did not get an immediate response from me is no reason to get sanctimonious about your perceived knowledge. You don’t want to accept that there will be a pre-70th Week Harpazo… by all means, go for it. But do not ask me to side with you in that (as I believe) ill-advised decision.

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    • cfryalls
      March 5, 2014

      I’m not being sanctimonious at all. I have a zeal for the word of God and I hate the violence that has been done to the scriptures by money grubbing preachers. They deceive the saints and try to divide the body of Christ between Jews and Gentiles and sell false assurances of an early escape while no where in the scriptures is there a mention of such a thing. The church is told to prepare to endure tribulation and to stand faithfully even to the loss of our own lives. That is not being preached by these popular writers and preachers. Where does Yeshua ever say, Don’t worry I will come for you before the tribulation? He doesn’t!

      I thought yeasterday that we were in a discussion and that you would be answering soon. My mistake I suppose. But now that you have posted, where is the scripture that promises a Harpazo before the Tribulation begins? You have not provided it. While I have provided several that say it is After the Tribulation.

      Look, most believe that we are living in the last days and that the tribulation is at hand. If that is true, then you have to accept that according to the scriptures the Church will be filled with false doctrine and fallen from sound doctrine. And this is why the Antichrist is able to come to power. Paul again tells us the sequence.

      2TH 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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  4. cfryalls
    March 5, 2014

    To and From Sean above.
    Sean said ” They consist the 144,000 Jewish evangelists and the innumerable numbers of both Jews and Gentiles who received Jesus Christ during the 70th Week.”
    No the 144,000 are only Jews 12000 from each of the tribes listed. No where are they described as Evangelists. In fact their entire mission is that they stand with Christ during the time of wrath. They are witnesses of the events, just as the 300 who were chosen to stand as witnesses of God’s salvation in the days of Gideon. (Judges 7) They are neither warriors or evangelists. They are those who will be witnesses and give testimony.

    The Multitude of gentiles from every nation seen in Revelation 7 are in fact all the saints other than the 144,000 who came through the Tribulation, just as is stated, and they have been raptured and /or resurrected and are now with the Lord. Notice that in Rev 6 just before the introduction of the 144,000 that the captains of the armies and the kings of the earth recognize that they see Christ coming in the Clouds and that the time of His wrath has come. The wrath is God’s judgment on the Antichrist kingdom. They actually SEE with thier eyes Yeshua coming in the Clouds: Rev 6: [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    All this follows the celestial sign that takes place After the great tribulation when the Sun and Moon are darkened. This is exactly as Yeshua also said and also the Prophets like Joel. Joels prophecy in Chapter 2 actual defines the beginning and end of the “Church age”, which begins with the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit on Shavuot as Peter made clear, and it ends with the time of the wrath of God when the Sun and moon are darkened. Notice this part of Joels prophecy was NOT fulfilled on Shavuot. It is the end marker of the Church age.

    The seals are a view of what the believers will experience from the time of Christ until his return. Trumpets is a view of what the unsaved world will experience. The bowls is what the beast empire will experience. They all take place within the 1290 days that Daniel is told. It begins with the Abomination and ends with the return of Messiah. The Tribulation is 1290 days long, not 7 years. The covenant the beast makes is during the 70th week, and it is meant to be 7 years long, but in the midst of it, in the middle of that 7 years that covenant is broken and the Tribulation takes place. There is no 7 year tribulation.

    The bride of Christ is not those who are Raptured in the last days. It is the complete counting of all who are saved through His Blood. It includes the Apostles and Paul and the churches of the 1st century. We are all part of the bride of Christ!

    Paul the Apostle tells us that He is part of this bride of Christ and that he would join all the rest of the Church and enter God’s rest, when Yeshua returns, not is some secret Harpazzo. Here is Pauls own words on that:

    2 Thes 1: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    You will REST with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven, in flaming fire and with the host of angels such that all men will see.

    And Yeshua, if we can believe Him, and I certainly do:

    MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Isaiah, Joel, Yeshua, Paul, John, the Revelation. . . they all say the exact same thing, we are gathered from all the Earth AFTER the Tribulation when Messiah brings judgment and wrath upon the wicked.

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  5. Sean Osborne
    March 5, 2014

    #1. At the Harpazo the Bride of Christ, the dead in Christ and the living (in that order) are snatched away in the twinkling of an eye (a billionth of a second) and we all MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    #2. At the second coming of our Lord both of His feet set upon the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:1-4

    Do you see the difference here? It is blatantly obvious. Too obvious to be denied.

    Now to answer the key question you ask: “…where is the scripture that promises a Harpazo before the Tribulation begins?”

    It is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

    “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ…”

    God did not appoint us (the Bride of Christ) to wrath. That strongly implies that we are taken (Harpazo) or kept from the wrath of God during the 70th Week.

    The 70th Week is not for the Church, the Church is not present on the earth. As the angel Gabriel clearly instructed the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) the 70th Week is for Israel:

    Verse 24:

    “Seventy weeks are determined
    For your people and for your holy city,
    To finish the transgression,
    To make an end of[b] sins,
    To make reconciliation for iniquity,
    To bring in everlasting righteousness,
    To seal up vision and prophecy,
    And to anoint the Most Holy.”

    The 70th Week is for and about the salvation of the Jews, of Israel. As Paul says in Romans 11, “all Israel will be saved.” Romans 11:26

    Another proof is that NO WHERE in The Revelation of Jesus Christ between chapter 4 and chapter 19 is there one single reference to the Church/Bride of Christ. This part of the Revelation discusses the 70th Week in detail. So where is the Church/Bride of Christ? In Heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ that’s where we are during the 70th Week. And not just part of it… ALL OF IT. The Harpazo occurs in Revelation 4 and the Bride of Christ reappears WITH HIM in Revelation 19.

    And here is the coup de grace from the Gospel of Luke, chapter 21, verses 34-36 (emphasis added):

    “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    What are all these things that the Bride of Christ taken in the Harpazo is going to escape from? The wrath that has not been appointed to us by God that occurs over the whole earth during the 70th Week… the judgements in the breaking of the seals, the vial judgements and the bowl judgments – the entire wrath that occurs during the 70th Week.

    Again, if these Scriptures are not good enough for you to accept that the Harpazo will take us, that’s fine by me. I’m going. You are to, you just don;t realize it yet.

    See ya there.

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    • cfryalls
      March 5, 2014

      Sean thanks for taking the time to explain your position. Please allow me to comment. Firstly in 1 Thes 4: Paul is talking about 1. the resurrection of the dead righteous, and 2, the gathering after that of the living righteous. The time of both of these events is at the second coming, when the Lord comes in Glory and Judgment. Do a study of the term “Day of the Lord” and you will see that it is always used in reference to the day of Judgment and not in reference to a secret harpazo.

      [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

      1TH 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

      Those who remain unto the Coming of the Lord,
      The day of the Lord,

      Go on to the next letter from Paul and he reminds them that we all enter into God’s time of rest when Christ comes in an open display of power and authority, in flames of fire and with a host of Angels to punish the wicked and to be Glorified in the saints. This is not a secret appearance but a spectacle seen in the heavens world wide.

      2 Thes 1: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

      The Church is not appointed to wrath. That is correct! Yes, And the wrath of God comes after the end of the Tribulation. The wrath is the time of Judgment for the wicked beast anti-christ union. Look at Rev 6: [12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

      Can’t you see it, The mighty men on the Earth see Him physically coming in the Clouds and announce that they know that it is the time of God’s wrath and they are about to be slaughtered. This is after the Tribulation. The believers are removed from the Earth before the wrath begins. We know it is after the tribulation because in numerous scriptures the darkening of the sun and moon announces the end of the tribulation and the beginning of Gods wrath. So you are correct, the church is not appointed to wrath. We are not appointed to that Judgment because we have been washed in the blood of Gods lamb.

      MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      Look, here is an Old testament verification:
      ISA 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

      Enter thy chambers, until the indignation is overpast. The word indignation is the same word also translated wrath. But you have to read it in context to understand because in the preceding chapters Isaiah is giving the prophecies concerning the time of Tribulation. It is the same as in the New testament, Apostasy, evil comes to power, tribulation, the righteous are sheltered, the wrath of God comes. It is the same every time.

      We are not appointed to wrath. But we are certainly here for the tribulation and are told to stand firm during those days of woe. 2 thes 1: [4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

      ac 14: [22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

      Rev 7[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

      Matt 24: [12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

      Rev 4 is not the Harpazo in the way that you imagine. John states from the beginning that he was in the spirit and taken to witness the Lord’s day, (the day of the Lord) that is, the time of the end. Yes, in Chapter 4 when he is taken up he is taken to that time just after the Rapture and the Judgments, but then he is told that he is going to be shown all the things that must happen before that scene in Heaven becomes a reality.

      The Revelation is a series of visions, not one continuous chronology of events. This is evident because as you read it, if it were a simple sequence all in order, then there are two times the waters turn to blood, three times the Euphrates is dried up, two battles of Armageddon etc. The Chapters cover the same events from different perspectives as they are experienced by different groups of people. As I explained earlier in regards to the believers during the tribulation it is covered in the seals. The unsaved world, what they experience is shown in the trumpets, and the beast empire experiences are in the bowls. Other sections like chapters 12-14 pick up the sealed book of Daniels vision to address what happens to Israel and uses the same beast symbols that Daniels used and covers from the birth of Messiah to the judgment. Still other chapters cover the actual judgment of the nations, the wine press of God, others cover the coming of the New Jerusalem and the Millennial Kingdom. Seals, trumpets and Bowls overlap time wise. They are happening at the same time, during the Tribulation, but what each group experiences is different. This is why Christian martyrs are only seen in the seals. Because the seals is for the Church. They can not be Christian martyrs among the unsaved.

      One last point before bed time here in the east, There are only two resurrections and only one Rapture. The first resurrection is for the righteous, the second resurrection is for the evil and bring they before the throne of judgment. If there was a pretrib Rapture then there would have to be yet another resurrection and rapture to bring in all those people who become believers during the tribulation, the ones we see in Rev 7. They are in Heaven and came out of the Great Tribulation. So there would have to be a rapture and resurrection before the Tribulation and another after the tribulation and that is just plain unscriptural. There is only one rapture and resurrection for the righteous, and it takes place AFTER the tribulation and before the Judgment by God’s wrath. Those who become believers after that judgment, during the millennial Kingdom are not given the glorified body. They remain as mortals and live in the Kingdom living under the rule of Messiah and living greatly extended lives free of illness pollution and such.

      ZEC 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

      luke 21: [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

      He doesn’t say, “Don’t worry you will not be there” but that we should pray to be worthy to escapes those things. Not all will escape! We are there in the midst of the tribulations but not all are going to face the same pressures. Christians and Jews living in Islamic nations will certainly be faced with more persecution than say, believers living in Tasmania, or Canada. Just as God sheltered Israel during the tribulations in Egypt before the Exodus, I believe he will once again provide a great deal of divine protection for His people the righteous during the Tribulation of the last days.

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  6. cfryalls
    March 6, 2014

    I see that a number of people are following this post and the discussion. That is good and I hope you will invite others you know to read this as well.

    I want to say here that I have no interest in what is called “One up-manship” or trying to prove that I am a superior scholar. I have no ill feeling toward Sean. As I said, I myself was once a pre-trib-believer until I really started to test and try to prove what popular writers and preachers were saying. It is like any peer review. In science you make a discovery and then publish your findings including your methods. This allows others to try to repeat the experiments and see if they get the same results or was it just a fluke. This process proves if something is correct. And Bible study in the face of so many popular writers like Hal Lindsey. Jack Van Impi, David Jeremiah and a host of others publish many books and DVD’s but who is testing their doctrine? Who do they answer to? No one! It is up to each one of us to test what we read or hear and we are to do that by the word of God, testing scripture by other scriptures and crossing those with Historical facts where they apply.

    The reason I am so adamant about speaking out against this pretribulation Doctrine is because it is perhaps the greatest threat the Church has ever faced. It is a dangerous doctrine, that not only changes the Gospel message, but it makes a separate group of believers called the bride of Christ, who are made only of those who are Raptured. They have, according to this doctrine, a very special relationship with Messiah based completely on their believing in the pretrib rapture. It adds something to the means of salvation, because those who don’t believe in the doctrine are not included in its benefits and not the bride of Christ. Those who are raptured before the tribulation have had the easy Christian life and they are the bride, while those who after them suffer terrible persecution torture and even death for their faith are not rewarded. They are in fact relegated to a new group of people called the “Tribulation Saints” who remain as mortals and repopulate the Earth. Can you see how this distorts the message of salvation through faith in Yeshua and the unity of the body that is made up of all those of faith washed in the blood?!! All those saved from the very beginning are the bride of Christ and share in the Resurrection of the righteous, or the Rapture of the living, and the glorified eternal body! There is a single point in time, a point of demarcation, when it is decided who is included, and that time is when Yeshua comes in all his Glory, bringing judgment and gathering the saints of all ages together. At that point you are either in or out. They is no second resurrection of righteous after that.

    Also this doctrine sets up the church to be sucked into the greatest deception of all time, receiving the False Messiah, the Antichrist. How? Because pretribbers imagine that the very next event on the Prophetic time line is the secret appearing of Jesus, who will sneak them away to heaven. But the scriptures, the words of the prophets and Yeshua and even Paul make it abundantly clear that it is the Antichrist who comes first and proclaims to be Christ working great signs and miracles. We are warned that many, very many, will be deceived and lost. The true Messiah comes after the Antichrist and He comes in an open display that all will see not in a secret way. There is no mention of a prophecy where million of people will disappear and graves will be opened, unless they are coupled directly to the day of the Lord, to the time of His appearing openly. Search the scriptures yourself and see that this is true.

    If you think that Jesus is making a secret appearing before the tribulation then you are already in line to follow the Antichrist, because you have rejected the word of God and the warnings he gave us and it is the Antichrist who comes first and deceives the nations and even to an extent the very elect of God. This is the danger of false doctrine.

    This is why I am so Adamant about this battle. I am fighting for the lives of the saints and preparing all I can for the time that is quickly approaching. This is my call. Let God be true and every man a liar. And the false teachers, the Lindseys and Benny Hinns of this world, I rebuke you all in the name of Yeshua and call you to repent and return to Gods word and the salvation of God through Messiah. You are all wolves in sheeps clothing. I pray that you are reveled for who you are and others see who you really serve.

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  7. Irv Spielberg
    September 18, 2014

    Left Behind’s Jerry Jenkins: Casino Hypocrite!

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Jerry Jenkins, board chairman of anti-casino gambling Moody Bible Institute, has been casino gambling while telling students they can’t!
    Jenkins (along with Tim LaHaye who’s been chummy with “blasphemous” Moonies!) knows how to make a fortune by promoting the pretribulation rapture!
    First, some background. As you may know, pretrib began in Scotland in 1830. The earliest developers, including Edward Irving and John Darby, admitted that it was then a totally new view that had never been part of any church’s theology.
    They also admitted that it had suddenly sprung from only OT and NT “types” and “symbols” and not from any clear Bible statement!
    As late as 1957, pretrib expert John Walvoord admitted in “The Rapture Question” (p. 148) that “pretribulationism” is NOT “an explicit teaching of Scripture”!
    Since the early 1900s pretrib has been sold by novelists like Sydney Watson (in 1913) and by Salem Kirban whose “Left Behind”-type novel “666” came out in 1970 – the same year Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” started breaking sales records.
    The very first rapture novel titled “Left Behind” came from the joint pens of Peter and Patti Lalonde in mid-1995 before LaHaye (and Jenkins) later came up with their novel title: “Left Behind”!
    The pretrib rapture view, which admittedly is only an “inference” and not “explicit,” rests basically on verses in John 14, I Thess. 4, and I Cor. 15, none of which have either a “taken/left” separation or exciting, nail-biting scenarios that can “sell” pretrib.
    An aspiring writer can go to Revelation’s action-packed chapters instead and realize they can be tied to end time details found basically in the Olivet Discourse.
    As you may know, pretribs believe in two stages; Stage 1 is the pretrib rapture which supposedly occurs several years before Stage 2 which is the posttrib second coming to earth.
    Since the three “rapture” chapters listed above don’t have any clear rapture-type separation between the “righteous” and the “wicked,” the best launching pad if one wants to be a bestselling author is “the one shall be taken, and the other left” phrase in Matt. 24:40, 41 and Luke 17:34-36.
    Trouble is, Dr. Walvoord and many other pretrib leaders declare that the “one taken” refers to the “wicked” taken in judgment while the “righteous” are left! But since the average pew-sitters don’t seem to know this, one can easily convince them that the “one taken” is a sort of code for an any-moment pretrib rapture!
    And pew-sitters don’t know that Walvoord etc. also teach that the same phrase is part of “non-imminent” Stage 2 which is posttrib (and not pretrib) and is on “Jewish” (and not “Church”) ground!
    In order to preserve and emphasize Stage 1 (the pretrib rapture), pretrib merchandisers in recent decades have been quietly stretching forward various aspects found in Stage 2 and applying them to Stage 1. Aspects include “the day of the Lord,” “God’s wrath,” “the taken/left phrase,” “the unknown day and hour,” and Christ’s coming “as a thief” (which in the Bible is always tied to Armageddon and other posttrib events).
    (For more on the above Google “The Correct Answer to Who’s Taken” etc. on Joe Ortiz’s blog of Apr. 12, 2010. Also Google “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.”)
    LaHaye and Jenkins, well aware of everything in this revealing paper, have used the pretrib rapture to break all-time sales records and make millions of dollars that are destined to be left behind!
    For more on them and their partners, Google “The ‘Left Behind’ Rupture,” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Jerry Jenkins Apologizes for Being Seen Gambling in Casinos,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” “Evangelicals Use Occult Deception,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
    In closing let me say that Jeremiah 17:11 warns that “he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.”
    And you can bet on this!

    [Would like your opinion of the above which I spotted on the web.]

    Like

    • cfryalls
      September 18, 2014

      Thanks for the posting. It is a good article although I am not sure about the Casino thing and the Moonies. All men have sin, weakness that they struggle with. The real issue is 1. the false doctrine of pre-trib which blinds people to the truth, and 2. and the money that has been made from selling this doctrine. All stories which present great hope or the discovery of treasure have sold well over the ages. So does this fantasy tale of sudden riches from God. However if we look at the actual original script, (The Bible) it reads a lot differently doesn’t it. There we find hardship persecutions, crosses that we must bear up, times of great suffering, world calamity that will take place before the Lord returns and then gathers His people to Himself. I have publicly challenged Lahaye and Jenkins, Van Impy, Lindsey, to open public debate on the subject even in their own forums. However they declined my offers. And that is really sad, because it tells me that they KNOW they are not standing on Biblical truth and want only to continue their money grubbing enterprises. Hey I wrote a Novel self published in 1995 before the Left Behind books came out, called The Paradigm Shift. But as I got deeper into the study I realized that including a sequence of a pretrib rapture was not scriptural. and so I deep sixed the project and took a sizable (to me) financial loss. I was not going to perpetuate a lie like that. It was a mistake. I repented from the heart! I made a huge public apology for the mistake. It was all I could do. Since then I have spent endless hours studying scripture and using God’s word to fight the error of the Rapture teaching. I repented in tears and anguish and have continued to fight against the very doctrine I had bought into before. Sort of like Paul, only in a much smaller way. Ha! It would be really a powerful thing if these men, Lahaye and Jenkins and the rest would come clean and admit they were wrong. But I don’t think we will ever see it. Not until the Anti-Christ is sitting in Jerusalem proclaiming to be god and to be whorshipped. Then they would have to admit their lies.

      Like

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This entry was posted on March 4, 2014 by in Charles's Blog and tagged , , , , , .
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